Comments on: Neandertals have the same mutations in FOXP2, the language gene, as modern humans http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/ Beyond bones & stones Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:33:20 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: jean-paul Jacobi http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-13409 jean-paul Jacobi Wed, 10 Dec 2008 06:00:18 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-13409 I am writing a story about a neandertal man 35000 years ago , and I am fascinated with the fact that one musical instrument was retreived on a burial site , dated carbon14 40000 years ago , so if music instrument ... means singing , therefore means voice and by deduction a language is not it ? ... Please answer me as this is a very important link for my research on my story ... merci beaucoup ! jpj I am writing a story about a neandertal man 35000 years ago , and I am fascinated with the fact that one musical instrument was retreived on a burial site , dated carbon14 40000 years ago , so if music instrument … means singing , therefore means voice and by deduction a language is not it ? … Please answer me as this is a very important link for my research on my story … merci beaucoup ! jpj

]]> By: Homo heidelbergensis Ear Anatomy Indicates They Could Have Heard The Same Frequency of Sounds As Modern Humans « Anthropology.net http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-11713 Homo heidelbergensis Ear Anatomy Indicates They Could Have Heard The Same Frequency of Sounds As Modern Humans « Anthropology.net Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:07:02 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-11713 [...] Comments Pinpointing when language became a prevalent trait during human evolution has been tricky. Last fall we read a paper which document that Neandertals have the same FOXP2 sequence as modern humans. FOXP2 is a [...] [...] Comments Pinpointing when language became a prevalent trait during human evolution has been tricky. Last fall we read a paper which document that Neandertals have the same FOXP2 sequence as modern humans. FOXP2 is a [...]

]]> By: Rachel Mackelprang & Edward Rubin Summarize Recent Neandertal Genomic Research « Anthropology.net http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-11690 Rachel Mackelprang & Edward Rubin Summarize Recent Neandertal Genomic Research « Anthropology.net Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:06:36 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-11690 [...] sequencing project and the recent research, such as the melanocortin 1 receptor (Mc1r) and forkhead box P2 (Foxp2) studies we read about last fall. They also outline some of the challenges facing [...] [...] sequencing project and the recent research, such as the melanocortin 1 receptor (Mc1r) and forkhead box P2 (Foxp2) studies we read about last fall. They also outline some of the challenges facing [...]

]]> By: Questioning the level of modern human contamination in Neandertal FOXP2 gene sequence « Anthropology.net http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-10441 Questioning the level of modern human contamination in Neandertal FOXP2 gene sequence « Anthropology.net Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:52:46 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-10441 [...] Neandertal FOXP2 gene sequence Jump to Comments One of my favorite papers from last year was the investigation of FOXP2 allele in Neandertals. It seems like it was one of your favorite papers too, that post gets a lot of hits still! That [...] [...] Neandertal FOXP2 gene sequence Jump to Comments One of my favorite papers from last year was the investigation of FOXP2 allele in Neandertals. It seems like it was one of your favorite papers too, that post gets a lot of hits still! That [...]

]]> By: Victor http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5326 Victor Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:51:56 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5326 Thanks for responding, Terry. If you have a background in music and ethno, as well as anthro, I think you'll find quite a bit to interest you in my blog, so I hope you'll keep reading. Most people in ethno seem to be afraid of me, because they see what I'm doing as a throwback to the "bad old days" of kulturkreise thinking -- and are also shy of anything remotely "statistical." And most in anthro lack the musical background to understand the sort of connections I think I'm finding. So I would appreciate any comments and also criticisms you might have. There's an essay that might interest you, by a very interesting guy named Roger Blench, a sort of combination linguist, archaeologist and ethnomusicologist: "Are Pygmies an Ethnographic Fiction?" -- http://www.rogerblench.info/Anthropology%20data/Pygmies%20an%20ethnographic%20fiction.pdf It's an enjoyable read, but his thinking seems the product of the prevailing "revisionist" ideology, that's questioning the legitimacy of "indigenous peoples" in all parts of the world. My reading of the genetic evidence (admittedly biased), is that yes indeed there IS considerable evidence of genetic connections, very old ones. It's a bit confusing, because some of the reports have found strong connections among various western groups, but no clear connection with eastern pygmies, such as the Mbuti. The most recent evidence (which I am not at liberty to say much about at the moment) apparently does show such links. All the genetic evidence I've ever seen on any Pygmy group identifies at least some of their haplotypes as among the oldest found anywhere. Some groups have more Bantu admixture than others, though. As far as the musical evidence is concerned, there is IMO a very strong connection among almost all Pygmy groups in Africa -- and Bushmen also. Blench should know better as he's knowledgeable about African music, but chooses instead to -- well, it's a long story. Actually I"m working on a paper about all the confusion on Pygmy and Bushmen music now. Meanwhile, if you check some of the earlier posts on my blog, you'll get a good sense of why I think the way on do on this. Thanks for responding, Terry. If you have a background in music and ethno, as well as anthro, I think you’ll find quite a bit to interest you in my blog, so I hope you’ll keep reading. Most people in ethno seem to be afraid of me, because they see what I’m doing as a throwback to the “bad old days” of kulturkreise thinking — and are also shy of anything remotely “statistical.” And most in anthro lack the musical background to understand the sort of connections I think I’m finding. So I would appreciate any comments and also criticisms you might have.

There’s an essay that might interest you, by a very interesting guy named Roger Blench, a sort of combination linguist, archaeologist and ethnomusicologist: “Are Pygmies an Ethnographic Fiction?” — http://www.rogerblench.info/Anthropology%20data/Pygmies%20an%20ethnographic%20fiction.pdf

It’s an enjoyable read, but his thinking seems the product of the prevailing “revisionist” ideology, that’s questioning the legitimacy of “indigenous peoples” in all parts of the world. My reading of the genetic evidence (admittedly biased), is that yes indeed there IS considerable evidence of genetic connections, very old ones. It’s a bit confusing, because some of the reports have found strong connections among various western groups, but no clear connection with eastern pygmies, such as the Mbuti. The most recent evidence (which I am not at liberty to say much about at the moment) apparently does show such links. All the genetic evidence I’ve ever seen on any Pygmy group identifies at least some of their haplotypes as among the oldest found anywhere. Some groups have more Bantu admixture than others, though.

As far as the musical evidence is concerned, there is IMO a very strong connection among almost all Pygmy groups in Africa — and Bushmen also. Blench should know better as he’s knowledgeable about African music, but chooses instead to — well, it’s a long story. Actually I”m working on a paper about all the confusion on Pygmy and Bushmen music now. Meanwhile, if you check some of the earlier posts on my blog, you’ll get a good sense of why I think the way on do on this.

]]> By: TerryT http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5307 TerryT Fri, 26 Oct 2007 08:04:17 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5307 Victor. Interesting blog. I must confess a similar idea had occurred to me regarding Pygmy languages, or rather the lack of a shared origin for them. I concluded that communicating with their neighbours became more important to them than communicating with other Pygmy groups. Perhaps also Pygmy groups do not share a common origin. They evolved from several source groups. Anyone have genetic information regarding Pygmies? Most seem to share a single Y-chromosome group. How about mtDNA? By the way Victor I'm also a musician and music teacher by profession. Also done a unit in ethnomusicology, in Australia. Victor. Interesting blog. I must confess a similar idea had occurred to me regarding Pygmy languages, or rather the lack of a shared origin for them. I concluded that communicating with their neighbours became more important to them than communicating with other Pygmy groups. Perhaps also Pygmy groups do not share a common origin. They evolved from several source groups. Anyone have genetic information regarding Pygmies? Most seem to share a single Y-chromosome group. How about mtDNA? By the way Victor I’m also a musician and music teacher by profession. Also done a unit in ethnomusicology, in Australia.

]]> By: Victor http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5283 Victor Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:03:34 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5283 Having FOXP2 in their cells doesn't mean they had language (as we know it) and doesn't even suggest it. All it means is that they were capable of it. I've been doing some thinking about the question of when language might have originated and I think I've found an interesting clue. I have no idea whether anyone else has ever considered this line of thinking, or whether there might be serious problems with it, so I'd appreciate it if any knowledgeable parties reading here would be so kind as to hop over to my blog, read what I have to say on this, and comment. The relevant post is here: http://music000001.blogspot.com/2007/10/98-did-pygmies-ever-have-language-of.html Having FOXP2 in their cells doesn’t mean they had language (as we know it) and doesn’t even suggest it. All it means is that they were capable of it.

I’ve been doing some thinking about the question of when language might have originated and I think I’ve found an interesting clue. I have no idea whether anyone else has ever considered this line of thinking, or whether there might be serious problems with it, so I’d appreciate it if any knowledgeable parties reading here would be so kind as to hop over to my blog, read what I have to say on this, and comment. The relevant post is here: http://music000001.blogspot.com/2007/10/98-did-pygmies-ever-have-language-of.html

]]> By: First Results from Neanderthal Sequencing … and it’s FOXP2 « Language Evolution http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5240 First Results from Neanderthal Sequencing … and it’s FOXP2 « Language Evolution Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:02:56 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5240 [...] must also have been present in an earlier common ancestor as well. There is an excellent post on it here at Anthropology.net. For those of you with institutional access the paper is online here at Current [...] [...] must also have been present in an earlier common ancestor as well. There is an excellent post on it here at Anthropology.net. For those of you with institutional access the paper is online here at Current [...]

]]> By: TerryT http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5175 TerryT Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:56:10 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5175 Thanks Kambiz. The reason I asked was to understand the reason for the comment, "Leaving out the unlikely scenario of gene flow [between the two lineages]". But I see that since I asked John Hawks has also questioned this statement. As I understand it modern humans had made it to Canaan (or whatever else you prefer to call the region) by perhaps 90,000 years ago. Although Neanderthals eventually replaced them again surely introgression into Europe would have been quite possible after that time. Thanks Kambiz. The reason I asked was to understand the reason for the comment, “Leaving out the unlikely scenario of gene flow [between the two lineages]“. But I see that since I asked John Hawks has also questioned this statement. As I understand it modern humans had made it to Canaan (or whatever else you prefer to call the region) by perhaps 90,000 years ago. Although Neanderthals eventually replaced them again surely introgression into Europe would have been quite possible after that time.

]]> By: Kambiz Kamrani http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5144 Kambiz Kamrani Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:49:45 +0000 http://anthropology.net/2007/10/18/neandertals-have-the-same-mutations-in-foxp2-the-language-gene-as-modern-humans/#comment-5144 Terry, the supplemental material says the bones were calibrated to be 43,129 +/- 129 years old. More from the supplemental, <blockquote>"The bones 1253 and 1351c are fragments of long bones that came from mature individuals with Neandertal morphological features and that <strong>were deliberately fragmented, presumably to retrieve the bone marrow.</strong>"</blockquote><em>FOXP2</em> and cannibalism. Terry, the supplemental material says the bones were calibrated to be 43,129 +/- 129 years old. More from the supplemental,

“The bones 1253 and 1351c are fragments of long bones that came from mature individuals with Neandertal morphological features and that were deliberately fragmented, presumably to retrieve the bone marrow.“

FOXP2 and cannibalism.

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