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	<title>Comments on: Does studying boat design show us that culture is subject to natural selection?</title>
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	<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/</link>
	<description>Beyond bones &#38; stones</description>
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		<title>By: Can There Be A Synthesis Between Cultural and Biological Evoluion? &#171; Anthropology.net</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-11879</link>
		<dc:creator>Can There Be A Synthesis Between Cultural and Biological Evoluion? &#171; Anthropology.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-11879</guid>
		<description>[...] by Atkinson et al., where Simon and team showed that language evolves in bursts. Additionally, Deborah Rogers and Paul Ehrlich showed that cultural things have functional and symbolic elements, the former of which is under naturally selective [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Atkinson et al., where Simon and team showed that language evolves in bursts. Additionally, Deborah Rogers and Paul Ehrlich showed that cultural things have functional and symbolic elements, the former of which is under naturally selective [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-11727</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-11727</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s be clear about what the authors actually do here: they compare how much variability there is in the functional versus symbolic data set (or rather, how different or similar islands appear in each dataset) and then use this as a proxy for &#039;rate of evolution&#039;. In order for this to work you have to assume canoes are phylogenetically related, and that both the &#039;functional&#039; and &#039;symbolic&#039; traits were conjoined in the evolutionary process. That is, the symbolic traits aren&#039;t part of multiple other evolving systems (e.g. plant use, wood carving) and don&#039;t get tacked on to canoes randomly. Otherwise you could simply be testing whether people are more likely to actively share/borrow functional traits or symbolic traits, rather than how quickly each evolves. Or worse: you could be comparing variation in canoes versus variation in arbitrary variables.

The authors don&#039;t seem particularly familiar with the prehistory of Oceania, previous research done on canoes and voyaging, or the context in which Haddon and Hornell gathered their data. For example many of the islands included had ceased long distance voyaging ca.1400AD, and it is widely believed lost canoe making technology, others such as Fiji had recently adopted Micronesian canoe designs.  

But whatever. The main problem that I see is the way in which traits are defined and classified as either functional or symbolic. Several of the functional traits appear to be stylistic variations, with probably very little functional import - the outrigger attachment techniques for example. The authors speculate variance in this trait was due to &quot;types of waves encountered&quot; (!) or &quot;constrained by availability of materials&quot;. But speculation is not proof. Haddon and Hornell themselves regarded outrigger variation as stylistic/cultural. With Darwin&#039;s finches it is demonstrable that beak shape is functional and associated with ecological niche. But how can you separate traits into &#039;functional&#039; and &#039;symbolic&#039; when you don&#039;t know (much less demonstrate) the source of variation? Ehrlich and Rogers seem to define functional traits using some common sense idea of &#039;integral bits of a canoe&#039; and contrast this with the &#039;frilly bits&#039;. If you look at their trait lists this becomes really apparent. The functional traits are elements that determine the basic canoe form, whilst the symbolic traits consist of seemingly arbitrary add-ons - whether a canoe had feathers attached to the bow, or leaves on the mast. I immediately ask: did all canoes have feathers in a given region? Did Haddon and Hornell (or more properly their sources: traders, explorers, missionaries, paintings, toy models) record that kind of thing systematically? Or were they more concerned with basic techniques of canoe construction? (actually, Yes). Is variation more evident in the symbolic traits because these contain a large portion of arbitrariness in both their definition and recording?

What really makes me laugh about this kind of research however is the fact that they once again mine an ancient colonial era book for data. And then they (and Shennan in his commentary) go and complain about how anthropologists and sociologists don&#039;t collect this stuff anymore. But if their findings are to have any wider significance whatsover they could very easily go out and record any similar dataset in their own neighbourhood. Maybe cellphone traits? Or how about Cars? Or Desktop computers? Or are they really arguing this kind of thing can only be detected in small scale societies, living on isolated islands, having diverged from an ancestral population, and abandoned ties with the world? 

As it is now all they have done is proved that they can generate data from a book and make it appear patterned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s be clear about what the authors actually do here: they compare how much variability there is in the functional versus symbolic data set (or rather, how different or similar islands appear in each dataset) and then use this as a proxy for &#8216;rate of evolution&#8217;. In order for this to work you have to assume canoes are phylogenetically related, and that both the &#8216;functional&#8217; and &#8217;symbolic&#8217; traits were conjoined in the evolutionary process. That is, the symbolic traits aren&#8217;t part of multiple other evolving systems (e.g. plant use, wood carving) and don&#8217;t get tacked on to canoes randomly. Otherwise you could simply be testing whether people are more likely to actively share/borrow functional traits or symbolic traits, rather than how quickly each evolves. Or worse: you could be comparing variation in canoes versus variation in arbitrary variables.</p>
<p>The authors don&#8217;t seem particularly familiar with the prehistory of Oceania, previous research done on canoes and voyaging, or the context in which Haddon and Hornell gathered their data. For example many of the islands included had ceased long distance voyaging ca.1400AD, and it is widely believed lost canoe making technology, others such as Fiji had recently adopted Micronesian canoe designs.  </p>
<p>But whatever. The main problem that I see is the way in which traits are defined and classified as either functional or symbolic. Several of the functional traits appear to be stylistic variations, with probably very little functional import &#8211; the outrigger attachment techniques for example. The authors speculate variance in this trait was due to &#8220;types of waves encountered&#8221; (!) or &#8220;constrained by availability of materials&#8221;. But speculation is not proof. Haddon and Hornell themselves regarded outrigger variation as stylistic/cultural. With Darwin&#8217;s finches it is demonstrable that beak shape is functional and associated with ecological niche. But how can you separate traits into &#8216;functional&#8217; and &#8217;symbolic&#8217; when you don&#8217;t know (much less demonstrate) the source of variation? Ehrlich and Rogers seem to define functional traits using some common sense idea of &#8216;integral bits of a canoe&#8217; and contrast this with the &#8216;frilly bits&#8217;. If you look at their trait lists this becomes really apparent. The functional traits are elements that determine the basic canoe form, whilst the symbolic traits consist of seemingly arbitrary add-ons &#8211; whether a canoe had feathers attached to the bow, or leaves on the mast. I immediately ask: did all canoes have feathers in a given region? Did Haddon and Hornell (or more properly their sources: traders, explorers, missionaries, paintings, toy models) record that kind of thing systematically? Or were they more concerned with basic techniques of canoe construction? (actually, Yes). Is variation more evident in the symbolic traits because these contain a large portion of arbitrariness in both their definition and recording?</p>
<p>What really makes me laugh about this kind of research however is the fact that they once again mine an ancient colonial era book for data. And then they (and Shennan in his commentary) go and complain about how anthropologists and sociologists don&#8217;t collect this stuff anymore. But if their findings are to have any wider significance whatsover they could very easily go out and record any similar dataset in their own neighbourhood. Maybe cellphone traits? Or how about Cars? Or Desktop computers? Or are they really arguing this kind of thing can only be detected in small scale societies, living on isolated islands, having diverged from an ancestral population, and abandoned ties with the world? </p>
<p>As it is now all they have done is proved that they can generate data from a book and make it appear patterned.</p>
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		<title>By: More on Cultural Evolution &#171; Anthropology.net</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-11508</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Cultural Evolution &#171; Anthropology.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-11508</guid>
		<description>[...] journal. The second, this column in Seed Magazine by Paul Ehrlich &#8212; who recently published a research paper in PNAS on cultural evolution, as well as a back and forth series of letters with a criticizer of his [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] journal. The second, this column in Seed Magazine by Paul Ehrlich &#8212; who recently published a research paper in PNAS on cultural evolution, as well as a back and forth series of letters with a criticizer of his [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cultural Evolution: Can natural selection explain cultural rates of change? &#171; Anthropology.net</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-11282</link>
		<dc:creator>Cultural Evolution: Can natural selection explain cultural rates of change? &#171; Anthropology.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:52:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-11282</guid>
		<description>[...] and Ehrlich wrote, “Natural selection and cultural rates of change.” I covered that paper in a February post, raising some [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and Ehrlich wrote, “Natural selection and cultural rates of change.” I covered that paper in a February post, raising some [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TerryT</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-10084</link>
		<dc:creator>TerryT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-10084</guid>
		<description>Kambiz.  Perhaps &quot;it is incorrect to call it natural selection&quot; however it does demonstrate similarities.  The main point I&#039;d disagree with in the original article is their statement, &quot;little outside influence, or noise, from other cultures has theoretically impacted Oceanic canoe design&quot;.  I believe they underestimate the influences from outside that have influenced canoe design.  I also believe we underestimate the genetic influences from outside that have influenced regional human evolution.  All sorts of influences bounce around the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kambiz.  Perhaps &#8220;it is incorrect to call it natural selection&#8221; however it does demonstrate similarities.  The main point I&#8217;d disagree with in the original article is their statement, &#8220;little outside influence, or noise, from other cultures has theoretically impacted Oceanic canoe design&#8221;.  I believe they underestimate the influences from outside that have influenced canoe design.  I also believe we underestimate the genetic influences from outside that have influenced regional human evolution.  All sorts of influences bounce around the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Kambiz Kamrani</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-10058</link>
		<dc:creator>Kambiz Kamrani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-10058</guid>
		<description>The example of boat design &#039;evolving&#039; is definately not incorrect, but it is incorrect to call it natural selection. If anything it is artificial selection, a process by which favorable traits considered desirable by humans are systematically favored over unfavorable traits. There&#039;s not much &#039;nature&#039; involved when we consider there&#039;s a conscious element here that&#039;s ultimately doing the selection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The example of boat design &#8216;evolving&#8217; is definately not incorrect, but it is incorrect to call it natural selection. If anything it is artificial selection, a process by which favorable traits considered desirable by humans are systematically favored over unfavorable traits. There&#8217;s not much &#8216;nature&#8217; involved when we consider there&#8217;s a conscious element here that&#8217;s ultimately doing the selection.</p>
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		<title>By: TerryT</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-10057</link>
		<dc:creator>TerryT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 04:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-10057</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d assume we all agree that boat evolution doesn&#039;t evolve through random variations but we&#039;d have to agree that boat design has evolved.  The original Australians probably arrived there on logs or bamboo rafts whereas the first people to cross the wider distances to New Britain, New Ireland and the Northern Solomons presumably had a more advanced boating technology.  Again those who reached Fiji, Tonga and Samoa had a yet more improved boating technology, possibly outrigger canoes, and those who eventually moved beyond those islands into the wider Pacific must have had an improved sail.  This indicates boating has evolved, probably through the spread of new technologies.  Biological evolution also seems to work most often through the spread of new genes.  Therefore I maintain there are parallels.  

I realise we are all nervous about providing quotes for the Intelligent Design brigade but perhaps these sorts of parallels may help us explain exactly where their arguments fall down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d assume we all agree that boat evolution doesn&#8217;t evolve through random variations but we&#8217;d have to agree that boat design has evolved.  The original Australians probably arrived there on logs or bamboo rafts whereas the first people to cross the wider distances to New Britain, New Ireland and the Northern Solomons presumably had a more advanced boating technology.  Again those who reached Fiji, Tonga and Samoa had a yet more improved boating technology, possibly outrigger canoes, and those who eventually moved beyond those islands into the wider Pacific must have had an improved sail.  This indicates boating has evolved, probably through the spread of new technologies.  Biological evolution also seems to work most often through the spread of new genes.  Therefore I maintain there are parallels.  </p>
<p>I realise we are all nervous about providing quotes for the Intelligent Design brigade but perhaps these sorts of parallels may help us explain exactly where their arguments fall down.</p>
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		<title>By: Kambiz Kamrani</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-10055</link>
		<dc:creator>Kambiz Kamrani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 00:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-10055</guid>
		<description>Hi Terry,

Yeah I caught that in the original paper and I think it is flawed to consider it so absolute. Boat making is highly structured and often relies on more than one person. The boat maker is also not always the boat user. 

That matter aside, when a boat design fails, sure the sailors perish but knowledge of the failed design doesn&#039;t. People learn remarkably quickly to change up a boats design when members of their group don&#039;t return. That&#039;s what I mean by conscious trial and error.

Kambiz</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Terry,</p>
<p>Yeah I caught that in the original paper and I think it is flawed to consider it so absolute. Boat making is highly structured and often relies on more than one person. The boat maker is also not always the boat user. </p>
<p>That matter aside, when a boat design fails, sure the sailors perish but knowledge of the failed design doesn&#8217;t. People learn remarkably quickly to change up a boats design when members of their group don&#8217;t return. That&#8217;s what I mean by conscious trial and error.</p>
<p>Kambiz</p>
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		<title>By: TerryT</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-10048</link>
		<dc:creator>TerryT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 07:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-10048</guid>
		<description>Hey Kambiz.  When a boat design fails the sailors often perish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Kambiz.  When a boat design fails the sailors often perish.</p>
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		<title>By: Kambiz Kamrani</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2008/02/20/does-studying-boat-design-show-us-that-culture-subject-to-natural-selection/#comment-10046</link>
		<dc:creator>Kambiz Kamrani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 04:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=701#comment-10046</guid>
		<description>Conscious trial and error is not a part of biological evolution. When a boat design fails, the boat makers think about the failed design and improve upon it. In biology, this doesn&#039;t happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conscious trial and error is not a part of biological evolution. When a boat design fails, the boat makers think about the failed design and improve upon it. In biology, this doesn&#8217;t happen.</p>
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