Comments on: Rat bones tell us of the prehistoric dispersal of Polynesians to to New Zealand http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/ Beyond bones & stones Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:33:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: New Zealand Rats: Repeatability and When Can We Toss The Dates? « Afarensis: Anthropology, Evolution, and Science http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/#comment-14803 Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:46:53 +0000 http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-14803 [...] Repeatability and When Can We Toss The Dates? Posted on June 6, 2008 by afarensis, FCD Kambiz has an interesting post on the rat paper, which, just by serendipity, provides an excellent jumping point for the second post I had planned [...]

]]> By: archaeozoo http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/#comment-11303 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:23:28 +0000 http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-11303 I find this interesting because there have been several papers recently on the introduction of other animals into Oceania by humans. Pigs are an obvious example of this, but as I recall there are others too. I wrote about a paper that had come out on the introduction of chickens not so long ago. With this information about the rat, it seems like the picture is gradually being filled in. But it is also clear that there is a lot of work still to be done.

]]> By: dearieme http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/#comment-11296 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:15:27 +0000 http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-11296 The gap between Australia and New Guinea across the Torres Strait is full of islands – the biggest gap is (I guess) a few tens of kilometres. The gap from Australia to New Zealand is about 2000 kilometres. That’s a bigger step for ratkind.

]]> By: Kambiz http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/#comment-11295 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:16:10 +0000 http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-11295 Fair enough, Terry. You’re right, it would be a huge coincidence to have rats getting to New Zealand before humans given the fact that pre-European times, there’s evidence of humans and rats were living on other islands.

Kambiz

]]> By: TerryT http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/#comment-11292 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:13:10 +0000 http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-11292 Yes but. The kiore didn’t manage to reach many offshore islands. In fact this meant that many plants, birds and invertebrates that died out on the mainland survived on the offshore islands that the rats failed to reach. Where the rats were present on islands during pre-European times it is obvious that humans had lived on the islands at some time. Besides which the new research indicates the earliest rat presence in NZ coincides with a great deal of other evidence for human arrival. So it would be a huge coincidence if “they got to New Zealand by way of hitching a ride on a piece of driftwood or some other raft”.

Their arrival on many other Pacific islands also coincides with dated human arrival. The evidence is pretty convincing overall.

]]> By: Kambiz http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/#comment-11290 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:10:38 +0000 http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-11290 Hi Terry,

Thanks for the comment. As you can tell, I’m not too sold that rats couldn’t have made it to New Zealand by themselves. I’m not denying the evidence, I just think rats, even the kiore are capable of coming to New Zealand independent of humans.

I say that because rodents are the only placental order, other than bats and Pinnipeds, to have reached Australia without human introduction. Certainly bats and seals and sea lions flown or swam over to Australia. But rodents had to have navigated the seas to some extent, even the though sea levels were different in the Pliocene, when rodent fossils first appeared in Australia. The Wikipedia entry on the kiore confirms what Wilmshurst said,

“[The Kiore] cannot swim over long distances and are therefore considered to be a significant marker of the human migrations across the Pacific, as the Polynesians accidentally or deliberately introduced them to the islands they settled.”

But these rat’s didn’t have to have necessarily swim. It is just as likely they got to New Zealand by way of hitching a ride on a piece of driftwood or some other raft, just as they did by hitching a ride on a human watercraft.

Kambiz

]]> By: TerryT http://anthropology.net/2008/06/05/rat-bones-tell-us-of-the-prehistoric-dispersal-of-polynesians-to-to-new-zealand/#comment-11287 Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:52:27 +0000 http://anthropologynet.wordpress.com/?p=898#comment-11287 “it is possible these rats did the same”. Not really. The distances are too great. The rat expansion through the Pacific islands largely coincides with human expansion. Where it doesn’t I suspect dating for one or the other is wrong. That is what the researchers are going to turn to next, looking at places where arrival is ambiguous. Sure, once rat have reached an island they can survive without close contact with humans, in fact have done so on offshore islands around NZ for centuries.

Anyway 2000 years ago humans hadn’t yet reached Eastern Polynesia so if rats got here that long ago they must have been carried by people from Western Polynesia. No evidence for contribution to Maori NZers, or rats, from that region. Not impossible of course.

For some reason there is a great deal of opposition in some quarters in NZ to the idea that humans have been here only 700 or 800 hundred years. I can understand the indigenous inhabitants arguing against the idea but many people of European extraction also seem unable to accept the evidence. Got any ideas of motivation?

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