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	<title>Comments on: Neanderthals Dried Fresh Meat, Wore Tailored Clothing &#8211; Energy Study</title>
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	<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/</link>
	<description>Beyond bones &#38; stones</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:33:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Tim Jones</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14455</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14455</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the info regarding Plains Indians and their stew - quite an ingenious cooking method, and something that wouldn&#039;t be obvious from the archaeological record.

There&#039;s an interesting item on cooking in fire pits here:

http://bbq.about.com/od/barbecuehelp/a/aa061006a.htm

I don&#039;t know how far back such fire pits might have been used, but it seems a very good alternative to cooking entire animals over an open fire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the info regarding Plains Indians and their stew &#8211; quite an ingenious cooking method, and something that wouldn&#8217;t be obvious from the archaeological record.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s an interesting item on cooking in fire pits here:</p>
<p><a href="http://bbq.about.com/od/barbecuehelp/a/aa061006a.htm" rel="nofollow">http://bbq.about.com/od/barbecuehelp/a/aa061006a.htm</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how far back such fire pits might have been used, but it seems a very good alternative to cooking entire animals over an open fire.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Dupey</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14454</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Dupey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14454</guid>
		<description>If we consider that so many foiled ambushes of quarry ended with a flash of fur disappearing at high speed though the underbrush, a parting shot by way of spear thrown at that disappearing quarry would have been impossible to resist, it seems to me.  

One can imagine scraps of meat drying or freeze-drying around butchering sites very early in hominid history.  It wouldn&#039;t be much of a jump for hominid minds well before Neanderthal to have noticed this  and the non-perishing nature if the resultant dried meat.  Experiments  inducing this result on a larger scale would have seemed forthcoming sooner or later.

I forgot to mention one solution to the question of boiling meat that may well have been used even in Neanderthal&#039;s time or before hand.  Plains Indians were said to sometimes boil stew made from their quarry in its own skin, hung from a tripod, with water inside the skin.  Iv&#039;e never tried this, but the principle is such that the lower temperature of the boiling water inside, keeps the skin from burning through.  Presumably internal organs such as stomach pouches may well have been used also, and were no doubt used at times as storage vessels too.  Simply hanging unskinned quarry over a fire to singe and roast crudely may have led to further modifications of this particularly cooking method, culminating in using skins as boiling vessels, especially if it was noted that unskinned and  cooked game contained boiled stomach contents of an interesting flavor and texture.

Caribou stomach contents were said to be a particular delicacy with some northern peoples.
Pehaps skin cooking could have led to the use of hot rocks to boil food in containers separate from the fire as an elaboration.  As tedius as this method seems, it was widely used by tribal people without pottery  in much later times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we consider that so many foiled ambushes of quarry ended with a flash of fur disappearing at high speed though the underbrush, a parting shot by way of spear thrown at that disappearing quarry would have been impossible to resist, it seems to me.  </p>
<p>One can imagine scraps of meat drying or freeze-drying around butchering sites very early in hominid history.  It wouldn&#8217;t be much of a jump for hominid minds well before Neanderthal to have noticed this  and the non-perishing nature if the resultant dried meat.  Experiments  inducing this result on a larger scale would have seemed forthcoming sooner or later.</p>
<p>I forgot to mention one solution to the question of boiling meat that may well have been used even in Neanderthal&#8217;s time or before hand.  Plains Indians were said to sometimes boil stew made from their quarry in its own skin, hung from a tripod, with water inside the skin.  Iv&#8217;e never tried this, but the principle is such that the lower temperature of the boiling water inside, keeps the skin from burning through.  Presumably internal organs such as stomach pouches may well have been used also, and were no doubt used at times as storage vessels too.  Simply hanging unskinned quarry over a fire to singe and roast crudely may have led to further modifications of this particularly cooking method, culminating in using skins as boiling vessels, especially if it was noted that unskinned and  cooked game contained boiled stomach contents of an interesting flavor and texture.</p>
<p>Caribou stomach contents were said to be a particular delicacy with some northern peoples.<br />
Pehaps skin cooking could have led to the use of hot rocks to boil food in containers separate from the fire as an elaboration.  As tedius as this method seems, it was widely used by tribal people without pottery  in much later times.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Jones</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14453</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14453</guid>
		<description>Frying meat would indeed have been difficult - even if somehow they had fashioned a kind of fondue container, such as a suitably modified skull filled with hot fat, the results would definitely have varied.

Good point about the Schöningen spears, they completely slipped my mind, so I&#039;ll look into that - although the H. erectus people who made them may have been more suited to throwing a spear than. I&#039;ve looked at a few H. erectus skeletons online to try and determine if their arms were asymmetrical like ours, but couldn&#039;t tell from my brief search.

 
I think the idea that Mousterian spear points were considered too heavy to be used as thrown projectiles over any appreciable distance, with or without accuracy, first gave rise to the idea that modern humans would have had a competitive edge in the Upper Palaeolithic - plus I suppose even a straight-armed throwing - or bowling - action might have been possible for Neanderthals. I&#039;m not sure if they used bolas or slingshots either, but not as far as I know.

I think too that the massive amount of broken bones Neanderthals displayed further indicated that Neanderthals engaged their prey face to face - maybe that was their preferred method of hunting, but if they could have thrown effectively from distance, it seems more likely they would have done so, if only to avoid the horrific injuries and searing pain inflicted in the course of their struggles.

But it would seem surprising if no Neanderthal ever launched a spear in anger, either at human or beast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frying meat would indeed have been difficult &#8211; even if somehow they had fashioned a kind of fondue container, such as a suitably modified skull filled with hot fat, the results would definitely have varied.</p>
<p>Good point about the Schöningen spears, they completely slipped my mind, so I&#8217;ll look into that &#8211; although the H. erectus people who made them may have been more suited to throwing a spear than. I&#8217;ve looked at a few H. erectus skeletons online to try and determine if their arms were asymmetrical like ours, but couldn&#8217;t tell from my brief search.</p>
<p>I think the idea that Mousterian spear points were considered too heavy to be used as thrown projectiles over any appreciable distance, with or without accuracy, first gave rise to the idea that modern humans would have had a competitive edge in the Upper Palaeolithic &#8211; plus I suppose even a straight-armed throwing &#8211; or bowling &#8211; action might have been possible for Neanderthals. I&#8217;m not sure if they used bolas or slingshots either, but not as far as I know.</p>
<p>I think too that the massive amount of broken bones Neanderthals displayed further indicated that Neanderthals engaged their prey face to face &#8211; maybe that was their preferred method of hunting, but if they could have thrown effectively from distance, it seems more likely they would have done so, if only to avoid the horrific injuries and searing pain inflicted in the course of their struggles.</p>
<p>But it would seem surprising if no Neanderthal ever launched a spear in anger, either at human or beast.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Dupey</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14431</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Dupey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14431</guid>
		<description>The notion that Neanderthals couldn&#039;t throw spears is an example of some supposed expert pronouncing some ridiculous conclusion based upon a faulty untested hypothesis that flies in the face of both common sense and physical evidence. 

The discover of the Schoninger spears refute this notion, as the only people around to have made and used these &quot;throwing spears&quot; at the time (well before Neanderthal), were almost certainly his ancestors and they were also physiologically very similar in shoulder anatomy as far as we know.

A simple test showing just how absurd this notion that a robust human cannot throw a spear due to shoulder blade anatomy or motion limitation therein can be performed in five minutes.  If I strap my shoulders to my body, limiting all motion to arm movement from the elbow down, I can still throw a spear with considerable force clear across a room or an opening by simply combining the lower arm&#039;s foward (or sideways) swing with a quick high-torque twist of the body.  Try it.

If my puny body can still throw a spear with enough force to penetrate an object while my entire upper arms are strapped motionless, certainly brawny Neanderthals could have generated a lot more force of a very lethal nature. This test situation eliminates all motion generated by the upper arm and shoulder.  In reality, we can assume that, whatever unproven limitions there may have been from Neanderthal&#039;s shoulder anatomy, his upper arms and shoulder would still have been  partly in motion and thus at least somewhat involved torque-wise. This would therefore have produced considerably more force than  the conditions of my test allow.

Simple tests such as this should always be conducted before silly pronouncments such as &quot;Neanderthals couldn&#039;t throw spears&quot; become accepted as known facts.

I also noticed some references to Neanderthals &quot;frying&quot; meat.  I would suspect that the author actually meant &quot;roasting&quot;, as frying would require a pan of some sort to hold the oil and allow the meat to actually fry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The notion that Neanderthals couldn&#8217;t throw spears is an example of some supposed expert pronouncing some ridiculous conclusion based upon a faulty untested hypothesis that flies in the face of both common sense and physical evidence. </p>
<p>The discover of the Schoninger spears refute this notion, as the only people around to have made and used these &#8220;throwing spears&#8221; at the time (well before Neanderthal), were almost certainly his ancestors and they were also physiologically very similar in shoulder anatomy as far as we know.</p>
<p>A simple test showing just how absurd this notion that a robust human cannot throw a spear due to shoulder blade anatomy or motion limitation therein can be performed in five minutes.  If I strap my shoulders to my body, limiting all motion to arm movement from the elbow down, I can still throw a spear with considerable force clear across a room or an opening by simply combining the lower arm&#8217;s foward (or sideways) swing with a quick high-torque twist of the body.  Try it.</p>
<p>If my puny body can still throw a spear with enough force to penetrate an object while my entire upper arms are strapped motionless, certainly brawny Neanderthals could have generated a lot more force of a very lethal nature. This test situation eliminates all motion generated by the upper arm and shoulder.  In reality, we can assume that, whatever unproven limitions there may have been from Neanderthal&#8217;s shoulder anatomy, his upper arms and shoulder would still have been  partly in motion and thus at least somewhat involved torque-wise. This would therefore have produced considerably more force than  the conditions of my test allow.</p>
<p>Simple tests such as this should always be conducted before silly pronouncments such as &#8220;Neanderthals couldn&#8217;t throw spears&#8221; become accepted as known facts.</p>
<p>I also noticed some references to Neanderthals &#8220;frying&#8221; meat.  I would suspect that the author actually meant &#8220;roasting&#8221;, as frying would require a pan of some sort to hold the oil and allow the meat to actually fry.</p>
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		<title>By: The Use of Optimal Foraging Theory to Estimate Late Glacial Site Catchment Areas From a Central Place: The Case of Eastern Cantabria, Spain &#171; Anthropology.net</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14387</link>
		<dc:creator>The Use of Optimal Foraging Theory to Estimate Late Glacial Site Catchment Areas From a Central Place: The Case of Eastern Cantabria, Spain &#171; Anthropology.net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14387</guid>
		<description>[...] Areas From a Central Place: The Case of Eastern Cantabria,&#160;Spain  Jump to Comments  In a previous post, the hunting strategies of Neanderthals 125,000 years by were discussed, and in this post [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Areas From a Central Place: The Case of Eastern Cantabria,&nbsp;Spain  Jump to Comments  In a previous post, the hunting strategies of Neanderthals 125,000 years by were discussed, and in this post [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Jones</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14376</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14376</guid>
		<description>Luis - I forgot to point out in the post, that on those occasions where Neanderthals might have lost access to they prey animals, they would have been losing a great deal more than just the meat - if they had relied on large herbivores for clothing and bedding as well, the effect of losing the resource would have been greatly worse, leaving them not only hungry, but cold and exposed as well, not a good state of affairs in a cooling climate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luis &#8211; I forgot to point out in the post, that on those occasions where Neanderthals might have lost access to they prey animals, they would have been losing a great deal more than just the meat &#8211; if they had relied on large herbivores for clothing and bedding as well, the effect of losing the resource would have been greatly worse, leaving them not only hungry, but cold and exposed as well, not a good state of affairs in a cooling climate.</p>
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		<title>By: Moebius</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14347</link>
		<dc:creator>Moebius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14347</guid>
		<description>Great review of this paper.  I&#039;ve linked to it &lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/primatediaries/2009/07/anthropology_carnival_with_afa.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great review of this paper.  I&#8217;ve linked to it <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/primatediaries/2009/07/anthropology_carnival_with_afa.php" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Four Stone Hearth Volume 70 &#171; Afarensis: Anthropology, Evolution, and Science</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14344</link>
		<dc:creator>Four Stone Hearth Volume 70 &#171; Afarensis: Anthropology, Evolution, and Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14344</guid>
		<description>[...] Jones, over at Anthropology.Net looks at Neanderthals Dried Fresh Meat, Wore Tailored Clothing – Energy Study &#8211; based on a recent paper in the Journal of Archaeological [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jones, over at Anthropology.Net looks at Neanderthals Dried Fresh Meat, Wore Tailored Clothing – Energy Study &#8211; based on a recent paper in the Journal of Archaeological [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://anthropology.net/2009/06/26/neanderthals-dried-fresh-meat-wore-tailored-clothing-energy-study/#comment-14331</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anthropology.net/?p=2095#comment-14331</guid>
		<description>Very interesting, thanks. I&#039;d agree with all said here. Soft soled shoes, like moccasins would allow the shoe grip to work anyhow, as the only indirect evidence we have of AMHs using shoes is of them using hard-soled shoes, like sandals or true shoes/boots. I guess we&#039;d never be able to tell if a fossil was using moccasins or some other kind of soft cold-protective shoe-wear (like some sort of impermeable leather socks). 

My only contention would be about Neanderthals having lost all their body hair (fur) like us. IMO, Neanderthals evolved from a separate branch of H. erectus (eventually known as H. antecessor/heidelbergensis) in Europe itself (or elsewhere in West Eurasia), living here for almost one million years in their different evolutive stages. They did develop other adaptations to cold weather, like their stocky bodies, so I have no particular reason not to believe they had lost all fur and had not even re-evolved it. Even if furry, they may still have needed good clothes anyhow for extra protection (much like we use hats and sky masks on top of head hair and beards).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting, thanks. I&#8217;d agree with all said here. Soft soled shoes, like moccasins would allow the shoe grip to work anyhow, as the only indirect evidence we have of AMHs using shoes is of them using hard-soled shoes, like sandals or true shoes/boots. I guess we&#8217;d never be able to tell if a fossil was using moccasins or some other kind of soft cold-protective shoe-wear (like some sort of impermeable leather socks). </p>
<p>My only contention would be about Neanderthals having lost all their body hair (fur) like us. IMO, Neanderthals evolved from a separate branch of H. erectus (eventually known as H. antecessor/heidelbergensis) in Europe itself (or elsewhere in West Eurasia), living here for almost one million years in their different evolutive stages. They did develop other adaptations to cold weather, like their stocky bodies, so I have no particular reason not to believe they had lost all fur and had not even re-evolved it. Even if furry, they may still have needed good clothes anyhow for extra protection (much like we use hats and sky masks on top of head hair and beards).</p>
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